Playing other peoples tunes on Ableton Live

i certainly dont go to a night to stand and watch a DJ cue up records all night!

i go for the music, mates, dancing. so i couldnt give a shit what they use to create the music..

Jason,

The benefits of CDR are truely starting to outweigh the benefits of Vinyl. This will be even more so in the next few years. In 6/7 years I dont think you will be able to but a new release on vinyl at all.

Move on mate.

How? There are two - speed of getting a track pressed and size/weight. That's the only difference - Oh, and if your thick enough to knock the needle off the record - but that's just stupidity on the dj's part.

I really hope that never happens - if it does it'll be a very sad day for independant music.

Ok there is a couple. Add to that cost benefits for both vendor and consumer. Also, the capabilty to be more creative, to manipulate, loop etc on tracks.

Why? Indie record labels will just change their business model and adapt. They will sell cdr's/downloads rather than records. Obviously record shops may struggle.

If you read my previous posts, you'll see I have moved on. the fact that ive been using new technology constantly as its brought in shows i have a clear view of both sides of the argument.

my original statement still stands, im not daft for saying it, i've had ample expereience from both worlds and vinyl is still the better format to be used.

6 - 7 years? not sure if you can remember when CD first came out and all the shops said they would stop selling vinyl and that it was to be discontinued, the way they did with betamax video. well, its still selling big time.

a couple of years ago (not 100% sure for the last year) turntables were outselling guitars... can you imagine that? so its not like its an old format nobody wants to use anymore.

more creative? thats utter crap. its a sales pitch to make you buy the stuff. the vast majority of djs dont know how to be creative on a set of decks alone, so they look for the easy way out, as already mentioned.
looping? ever bought two of the same record? go try it, i think you'll find its alot harder to loop, but alot more fun, and alot more scope than just 4 beats repeating

You said all DJ's should use only vinyl.

So if you do use CDR's, are you not contradicting yourself?

CDJ's have only been around for a few years so that is the reason why we are only starting to see a shift to that format from Dj's.

If you take away the sentimental aspect of records and actually compare the 2 formats against each other for a amatuer/pro DJ then I think you will find CDR's are more than a match for vinyl.( bar the availabilty aspect of certain tracks on CDR)

With the cost of vinyl going up and the availabilty of downloads/CDR's rising there is only going to be one winner.

I can understand your attachment to vinyl, but you really have to be realistic.

If you're skilled on turntables you can do those things with two records - it's just laziness on the dj's part - it's easier to press a couple of buttons - or even program it in beforehand if you've got the memory cards - than it is to really work the decks with two records - beat juggling etc. Take a lot of the fun out of it too.

Do you really beleive that labels will be able to survive on downloads? We're moving fairly of topic here by the way, but.....

Generally people aren't going to pay for downloads if they can get them free - you aren't getting a product like you do when you buy a record - you're getting a a piece of digital information, which you'll then store on a faceless cd with loads of other tracks on it - it's just not the same and people (I'm not saying everyone, but generally) won't pay money for it if they can either illegally download it or copy it from a mate - you can't copy a vinyl - and pewople don't feel like they're ripping anyone off coz it's just a bit of information on a cd.

Lots of independant labels can only survive because of the niche market that vinyl has withtin the dance music scene. I know this as I am working with distributors on a daily basis.

Maybe in mainstream dance music like house/trance cd sales may be increasing, but in underground scenes such as techno, electro, electronica where the boundaries of music are being pushed further - there are practically no labels (if any) that produce CDs - more are starting to provide downloads but this won't keep them going - it costs a lot less for a download than the labels would get for a vinyl sale.

I do beleive that we should be moving forward, but I don't think this is the right direction to take things in - At the end of the day we're doing exactly what the generations before us have tried to stop - let digital technology (ie CDs) ruled by the big multinational labels/companies take hold on the market and phase out vinyl.

Interesting debate this.

Here is an article that might throw a spanner in the works anyway.....


It looks as though audiophiles may have to resign themselves to the fact that in a few years time there will be only the chance to fondly re-live the good old days of nostalgia, rather than experience the new.
Vinyl, the medium that took over from Shellac, Bakelite and even earlier the wax pressing, has had its final play - well, almost. The year 2009, looks set to be the final turn in the long standing vinyl revolution.

A June 2003 press release from The Institute of Chemical Engineering, advised that key by- products of the current petroleum refining process would no longer be generated by 2009, due to deadlines agreed, in principle, with the chemical industry back in 1992.
These deadlines were however, only finalised in 1999, in the face of increasing environmental concerns and lobbying.

The IoCE went on to advise that a voluntary co-funded research and development program to seek a green alternative, possibly a polycarbonate based compound had been proposed in the 1999 summary.
However no members of the industry wide syndicate had been able to substantiate a sufficiently high market demand for a replacement for the petroleum by-product, which is the primary base for vinyl record albums.


Whilst concluding that the news marked "The end of an era for vinyl", a spokesperson of music retailing giants Tower Records advised that with sales of collective vinyl products accounted for less than a third of a percent (0.28%) of their total music sales World-wide in the last accounting period.
"Hardest hit will be the few remaining traditionalist vinyl Disc Jockeys" Tower Records confirmed.

Tower replied positively when asked if this early warning would mean a silence in the thousands of DJ booths and radio stations around the world. "For some, existing skills will need to be adapted for use with the rapidly advancing Compact Disc DJ equipment" continued Towers spokesperson., "it promises to be a very exciting transition as older techniques are retained and used alongside the plethora of new features that CD technology already offers todays forward thinking DJ's and turntablists". Towers spokesperson added "It is unlikely that we will continue to carry vinyl into 2009. We believe the needs of the DJ will be totally digital, in one medium or another, prior to the cessation date."

Radio stations and other areas of the broadcasting community are unlikely to be affected by this early warning of environmental issues validating the need for minor lifestyle changes either,. since almost all of the music played in a modern broadcast scenario is primarily CD, or from Digital archives owned under licence by the larger radio stations.

he did say that, he said 'should'. meaning even he should and would rather be using vinyl.

Yeah I know. So if he is not then he himself must understand the benefits of playing cdr's. Otherwise he would be playing 100% vinyl.

if you read my previous post, u would of seen that i work on a ship... you cant play vinyl on something that moves all over the place. this is also the thing i was saying about me knowing both sides of the story, which is clearly enuf to post my comments and back them up

Jason,

You clearly love your vinyl mate which is understandable. My main point is though whether you like it or not you will not be able to buy it in the future. You will be on CD's only.

It may be 6 years it may be 12. But it will happen and there will be not much you can do about it.

If it sounds good it sounds good. End of.

But I do agree that using Ableton to play one track after another is pretty weak. Most of the occasions I have heard this on have sounded pretty wooden anyway. Mistakes are good. If you're making them, your obviously challenging yourself.

Ableton can be used to absolutely devastating effect. not just for layering 4/4 loop after 4/4 loop on top of each other. For an example of Ableton used properly, check this out:

Spaz Mammoth

Thomas Brinkmann - Lovesong (Max Ernst)
Aphex Twin - Icct Hedral (Philip Glass Orchestration) (Warp)
Thomas Brinkmann - 109 Connection (Max Ernst)
Plastikman - Consumed (M-nus)
Cristian Vogel - Absolute (Tresor)
Mike Parker - Inversion 2 (CDr)
m2 - Tone Exploitation (Mille Plateaux)
Shifted Phases - Dance of the Celestial Druids (Tresor)
Auch - The Animal Factory (Mille Plateaux)
Front242 - Work (WaxTrax)
Daft Punk - Rock'n'Roll (Source)
Wu Tang Clan - Protect Ya Neck (The Jump Off) (Sony)
James Ruskin - Version (Tresor)
Plastikman - Plasticity (Novamute)
Front242 - First In First Out (WaxTrax)
Kraftwerk - Metal on Metal (Capitol)
Max Duley - Slap (Molecular)
Laurent Garnier - Water Planet (F Communications)
Mantronix - Needle to the Groove (Ten Records)
Joey Beltram - Nameless (Tresor)
Nick Wilson - Repetition (Sebastian Kramer Black/Red Mix) (CDr)
Jeff Mills - Transformation B (Rotwang's Revenge) (Tresor)
The Youngsters - Anxious Boy (F Communications)
Basic Channel - E2E4 (Basic Reshape) (Basic Channel)
Talking Heads - Psycho Killer (Live) (EMI)
Damon Wild - Jackass (Music Man)
Los Hermanos - Quetzal (Altos Cielos Mix) (Los Hermanos)
Tobias Schmidt - Wagging Tail (Tresor)
Jeff Mills - AX-009 C (Axis) (ncw reverse edits edit)
Wu Tang Clan - Interlude (Sony)
Daft Punk / Romanthony - Too Long (Virgin)
Thomas Brinkmann - Mit Sugar (Max Ernst)
_____INTERMISSION A - Can you feel it? ______
Open House and Placid Angels - Aquatic (Buzz)
Ovuca - Afternoon Girl (Rephlex)
Luka Baumann - B1 (ADV005)
Nine Inch Nails - Head Like a Hole (Opal Mix) (TVT)
The Youngsters - Spanish Harlem (F Communications)
Joy Division - Isolation (Factory)
Joey Beltram - Floaters (Tresor)
Nick Wilson - Cascade (Continual)
Aphex Twin - On (D-Scape Mix) (Warp)
K.Hand - Mystery (Tresor)
Nine Inch Nails - Stretched Reprise (TVT)
Diskordia - Psiho-Deliya (Tresor)
The Vision - Projectile Darts (Tresor)
Aphex Twin - Omgyiya Switch 7 (Warp)
808 State - Flow Coma (Creed)
____ULTRA STRETCH INTERMISSION_____
Tobias Schmidt - Hot on the Heels of Love (Disko B)
Bronski Beat - Small Town Boy (Forbidden Fruit)
The Youngsters - Slow (F Communications)
DMX Krew - The Glass Room (Rephlex)
Subhead - Scopex (Tresor)
KB and the Gang - Nachde Punjabi (Naxos)
Oliver Ho - In the Centre of Paradise (Meta)
Aphex Twin - Reprise (Warp)
Nick Wilson - The Sleeper (Continual)
Mr Fingers - Washing Machine (Trax)
Tomas Jirku - Pohdka (Mille Plateaux)
Surgeon - 9 Hours Into the Future (Dynamic Tension)

A fine choice of words. Too many people are too involved in 'the perfect mix'. If your hearing a DJ these days dropping a beat or not being completeley tight its usually because he/she is actually either having fun, or concentrating on more than one thing at a time. These people who go out and listen for such things are obviously DJs sulking like fuck coz they arent were the guy they are listening to is. I personally dont give a shit if the mix isnt 100% perfect, as long as the dancefloor is rockin back and forward, thats all that matters.

I think your on drugs. You obviously cant put a time scale on it at all as 6 years is a big jump from 12 years. I will however say that when they eventually do stop making vinyl it will be because they have got technology so close to vinyl you wont be able to tell the difference. ie. it will be a 12" CD you buy

OK, im off to work tomorow and wont be back for 14 days, so can we wrap this thread up now (i thought it had finished on Friday to be honest)

mixing isnt important at all! thers thousands who can beatmatch all day long! but how many can get a gig?

Its all about the tunes!

to a point.. aye, i agree with that. however, like everything else, i think its more who you know, rather than what you know.. which is a shame, cos most of the big names would be fucked if it was about what you could do with the gear and with a crowd

suppose so!

it didnt bother me at all on friday! his last hour was immense and restored my faith.

Its all about the tunes, who gives a shit if a mix is a bit off if the tunes are wicked.

Im still right